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Here are my cam results

Discussion in 'Tuning and Dyno Results' started by e246, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. e246
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    e246 Member

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    Jul 23, 2007
    Location:
    07 TC
    well as of my i/h/e/p setup i just got the brian crower stage 2 cams, valve spring and retainer kit, and tuned on e manage ultimate installed. I pulled a nice torque curve and ok h.p/t.q gains. I am still looking for alot more and am not sure if i wasnt to stay n/a or go turbo but now is the time to decide. Only thing left i can do is weapon r manifold if i wanna end up going turbo, but im not sure yet. Think im gonna try the manifold with a retune to see if i like it and am gonna stay n/a. any advice from yall go head and shoot.

    Heres my numbers
    car dyno graphs pictures by carrunner08 - Photobucket

    OO and i hurd i can raise my rpms now wich the e manage will only raise like 400 rpms, but the torque and power start dropping way before redline so how would that help, and also i wanted my top speed cut off removed but my tuner said he cant only way to raise top speed is by raising rpms, is that true??
     
  2. CadenceScion
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    CadenceScion Moderator Staff Member

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    Sep 29, 2009
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    2006 Scion tC
    The Weapon-R/Decendant Intake Manifold hasn't been proven that it will allow for any gains, I personally wouldn't waste my time. Our OEM intake is set up fine the way it is. As far as over riding the top speed gov, I am not positive if that can be done.
     
  3. e246
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    e246 Member

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    Ok, and you dont know what can be done for my next step. I know that if i go furhter the turbo wont work right if i wanted. I just wanted to get as close to 200 hp as possible, which i have 30h.p more to get there lol sucks. But just wanted some help on what can be done. Thanks tho
     
  4. SsmoothyMonster
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    SsmoothyMonster New Member

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    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    2006 Scion tC
    i was looking to do about the same thing, i am planing on building up the whole engine, with BC strokers kit, cams and valvetrain. i think that would get about 200 hp. idk
     
  5. okie
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    okie Member

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    Aug 7, 2010
    The Emanage can raise the rpm range. I was told it could push it higher than 400. It can raise the top speed buy extending this and taking out the top speed cut. The problem that we were told of is it depends on the year model. From everyone we talked to (dezod, world racing, and pt tuning) the 07 models just refuse to accept anything that the emanage wants to do to it. This is just my understanding of the system as it was explained to me. Hope this helps. Dont be afraid to call some of those shops they have always been helpful to me.
     
  6. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    e246 Which cams did you get? The N/A set would work with a turbo decent but the cams profiled for forced induction would not work as well on a N/A setup. I noticed that you A/FR was a little lean at WOT at 13.34:1. Most tuners shoot for a range between 13:1 to 11:1 depending on engine and fuel type. What cc injectors are you running? It is possible that the ECM might start see the injector duty cycle is becoming saturated, pulling back power, though the stock 380cc injectors should be good (80% duty cycle) to about 230BHP (200WHP).

    Our ECM likes to play it safe. You will also get to a certain point where your piggyback (whether GReddy or not) is going to cause the ECM to pull back the power (timing). This happens primarily because the MAF sensor data is skewed out of the range of it's prebuilt tables and what is allowed in the learned tables. The Ultimate is supposed to be able to clamp the MAF voltage to compensate. The person that I know of that has ever declared success in this has been a tuner shop in Puerto Rico but this has never been confirmed by anyone else.

    BTW.. the 127MPH speed cut is a fuel cut done by the ECM based on speed sensor data, not RPM. Raising up the RPM, if possible, would not change this speed induced fuel cut. Again, the shop in the PI has purported being able to artificially raise the RPM limit but was never able to beat the speed cut. I am not sure what the hybrid controllers on the market will allow to be done. They are suppose to have near full control of the engine but the speed cut is an algorithmic inside the ECM. The ECM itself would have to be hacked. You could falsify speed data, but you run a dangerous risk of the ABS, EBFD, and SRS systems not functioning properly. Also, you speedo might not register speed which means the odometer would not be counting which is highly illegal.

    To increase your power w/o FI, you are going to have to increase compression. A full port-n-polish of the head would be inorder as well. Then you could run a low form of race gas like 100Octane to get more power. A 50 wet shot of NO2 would be a nice addition. You could bolt in a LW flywheel or flexplate depending on your tranny.
     
  7. e246
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    e246 Member

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    Jul 23, 2007
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    Well Navy, I ended up getting the Brian Crow stage 2 turbo cams, which Brian himself told me thay had better lift and would net gains over the regular stage 2's. Then i got the Crower vlave spring and retainer kit. My injectors are stock, and dont know much about that. Would it be worth it to up them and is that and expensive install. Also i think i see what your saying about the speed cut, so if i raise the rpm it will still be around 130mph. Well what if you got a full standalone ecm, would you be able to make the top speed higher. Also i didnt even know the af/fr wasnt perfect. But i am looking for a new tuner here in C.t so hopefully he will tune it better. After i got the cams and tune, it did pull strong because of the better torque curve, but i wasnt to impressed with the gains, and acceleration still wasn't all that you know. I expected to gain more than 7 lb torque and 15 h.p, but what are ya gonna do. Im still really debating alot on what to do. I would be happy with around 200 hp and 185 lb torque if i could. I was thinking for my next step to get the weapon r manifold, (not great but someone on scionlife did gain like 8 h.p and 10 lb torque with it, and im working on a deal from them), and then some 11.1 je pistons/with rods, and arp head studs, then getting it all tuned, and run 93 octane.

    But i was worried if i wanted to go turbo some day, because my car only has 38k on it, and i add like 10 k a year. So if in 2 years when it hit 60k, i may want to swap the psitons for low compression and put a turbo on it. Would that all be possible? and what do you think? thanks man.
     
  8. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    The N/A BC cams, as I was told by Brian, was meant more for a race oriented motor as opposed to a DD. You would have seen a slightly better gain and power curve with that set. The set for turbos is a good compromise especially since you have a desire for F/I. Before you spend the money on the Weapon R manifold, you should seriously need to consider portflow on your head. This requires a complete teardown of the head for a port and polish. Only an experienced machine shop should handle this work. It is a mix of applied science and art. Skill, experience, and proper tooling plays a large part in a successful port-n-polish. Uping the compression is the only thing to increase power by making use of the increase in potential portflow on N/A motor. As Cadence stated, the OEM intake manifold flows sufficiently for any power that could be mustered on street motor. You could see gains once the other mods are in place. You could still run a turbo on a 11:1 compression engine. It would 93 Octane or better gas (E85 would work well here), a conservative tune, minimal boost levels, and/or methanol injection. Of course, this is not the most efficient use of a turbo, but you would still be able to make an appreciable amount of power. It would require a hybrid or a full stand-alone ECU.

    BTW... The Descendant intake manifold is much better build quality than the WR. Their runners seem to be better implemented than the WR piece. That is my primary reason for going with the Descendant. It looks purdy sitting in the display case at Jotech. :)

    Note: A stand-alone would give you full control. The ECM would no longer be in the equation so you can blast past 127MPH based on rev limit, gearing, tire diameter, HP level, and aero. When I had my tC for one week when I raced this dude in a Honda Accord on an 18 mile long bridge late one night. I was amazed at how well the car handled 100MPH+. It was very stable even at the speed cut. The car was bone stock so it definitely did not have that Lotus Elise handling to it. :)
     
  9. e246
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    e246 Member

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    Sounds good man i will keep the port and polish in mind for shure, just have to find someone in connecticut that does it. Also i will go with descendent manifold then if i grab it. One more question, how much of a gain do you think the 11.1 pistons would grab me. I sit at 170 h.p and 163 lb torque on the dyno. I would like to see around 200 h.p and 185 lb torque for now. Then maybe later do turbo, but dont know if the pistons would give me that 30 or so hp. let me know thanks man. I have the money saived, just waiting for spring but i am one of the only n/a tcs pushing it this far and want to proceed. But i do have lots to learn lol, so thanks
     
  10. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    There are a number of others running modded N/A motors. I am not sure how much gain that the compression increase will net you. With your cams installed, it should be a bit more than just a piston upgrade alone. With increased compression, you will be required to run 92-93 Octane gas. There is more power potential there so with tuning (maybe aggressive), you might net up to 30WHP. W/o tuning, look for about 20WHP. For a better idea of net power increase from the pistons, contact the piston manufacturer. They should have done atleast a minimal amount of testing.
     
  11. e246
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    e246 Member

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    Jul 23, 2007
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    Well i have decent tuning software, e manage ultimate. So i will be grabbing the decendent manifold, and have that installed while getting my custom exhaust built ( because my tuner said my agency exhaust didnt impress him with how it flows, and hes going to build me an exhaust from vibrant parts 2.5", he said i could gain a couple h.p from it but hell make the car sound better. and hes hooking me up pricewise.) Anyways the exhaust and manifold with a tune, hopefully gain anything around 10 h.p and 10 lb torque would be nice. Then after that i am going to get the pistons and rods, arp head studs, (maybe a couple other little things, navy if you know anything that would go good with the pistons and help let me know) run 92 octane, and tune the crap out of it. So wish me luck and hit me with any advice.. thanks man
     
  12. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    Don't expect much from your GReddy Ultimate. It is not as powerful as it is made out to be. WOT is about all it can alter and the ECM tends to alter itself back to what it wants to be.
     
  13. e246
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    e246 Member

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    I see what your saying. Well from the custom exhaust and manifold with tune, do you think ill pull atleast 10 more h.p and lb torque. And then with my next plans (pistons) i may just grab the aem standalone.. thanks
     
  14. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    With all your mods, you might be able to squeak between 5WHP and 10WHP, but expect the lower. The ECM retunes itself after 10-20 miles so what was gained on the dyno tune could be as much as 50% less. That is just the nature of our engine management. A hybrid or stand alone computer should be able to get you 10WHP maybe a little better on premium and it will stay like that. Check out this hybrid from Dezod, Dezod Motorsports. Allan Phillips Racing In-line ECU-Scion tC 05-10 (DEZOD EXCLUSIVE)
     
  15. e246
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    e246 Member

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    OO man bro that F***iin sucks soo bad. I didn't know the ecm retunes itself. So that means the 15 h.p i gaoned from the cams i lost a bunch of it. Thats b.s. Guess i will need to get a full standalone as soon as i really can. Well thanks for all your advice and some knowledge. I will be doing the custom exhaust and manifold, with a retune come april. Then will look at a new ecm and the psitons. Wish me luck bro. Will post up dynos when im done around may. Peace
     
  16. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep, it has been an issue with Toyotas in general. ECM relearns to fit within the established parameters of it's MAF and fuel trim tables. Unfortunately, the only method to truly override this (keeping the ECM), is to update those tables like what is done for the TRD S/C. The rub is that the interface to update those tables is wrought with encryption and an expensive, hard to get electronic hardware port. A full stand-alone can be rather expensive to buy, implement (wiring and dedicated sensors), and to tune. The hybrid management strategy utilizes the OEM sensors/wiring, provides inputs to the ECM, yet manages the engine 100%. It is, therefore, more affordable and easier to implement.
     
  17. e246
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    e246 Member

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    So instead of getting a full standalone, I should do the hybrid management strategy. And how do i get it and what do i do to make it work. Thanks
     
  18. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Dezod Motorsports. Allan Phillips Racing In-line ECU-Scion tC 05-10 (DEZOD EXCLUSIVE)

    It plugs inline with all of the factory sensors so it saves big money over traditional stand-alone, plus it can be easily installed/removed. Will require dyno time to fine tune. I believe that it can auto calibrate. The OEM ECM receives all of it's engine inputs directly from the hybrid but all other data to the ECM is unaltered so all systems in the car work.
     

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