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Everything was fine until I replaced my battery...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Laforgester, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. Laforgester
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    Laforgester New Member

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    Apr 29, 2012
    Wondering if someone has an Idea or any solutions to my 2005 Scion Tc's issue...

    Recently I had to replace the alternator and battery on my car. After changing these out my car's radiator fans and air-conditioner fans will not turn on. The speedometer doesn't register anymore and the sunroof won't open either after I've already tried several times to reset it by holding it down. We have gone through and tested and changed out all of the fuses (even though they looked fine, and got the green light on each one) however this doesn't seem to help. Like I said in the title here, everything was fine before I changed out the battery. Seems like there is just one small thing to be done that will fix everything... and I just don't know what it is :banghead: Why doesn't the air- conditioning clutch engage?

    Does anyone have any suggestions? I'd really like to drive my car again!!
    Thank you!
    Rachel
     
  2. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    Howdy Rachel. Sorry that your wonderful tC has a bad case of heartburn. The alternator and battery are fairly straight replacements. Looking at the charging system diagram, I don't see a connection with the internal voltage regulator to you issues. Two things that are a stark possibility here; 1) the alternator is defective. One or more of the diodes in the Bridge Rectifier could be damaged, defective, or not connected (solder) causing VAC leakage 2) A defective alternator or a shorted connection damaged the circuits in the ECM which would have to be replaced.

    1) The generator (alternator) creates VAC which is then rectified into VDC. If a diode is gone bad, part of the VAC waveform will leak past the bad diode causing an AC ripple. This can wreak havoc and cause other circuits to malfunction. A second or third diode will most likely cause damage to sensitive circuits like your car's ECM. I would take the alternator to an autoparts store with one of the more modern testers like AdvanceAutoParts, Autozone, Pep Boys, etc. Their machine will tell if my assumption is true. Myself, have I been running a bad alternator like this that has damaged battery after battery.
    2) The only way to check the ECM is to have it checked out by a Toyota Dealership or competent automotive repair shop that has access to the Toyota Tech Tool. This device is the only way to check diagnostic the ECM. This will turn out to be a costly endeavor running you a minimum of $400. Don't procrastinate on this as more electronic parts will succumb.

    I once had a '83 Mercury Capri that had a bad voltage regulator. It would allow the full voltage output of the alternator which over charged the battery causing it to out gas all of the battery acid. This caused current to flow backwards (electron hole theory) burning out every light bulb and destroying everything electronic but did not melt a single fuse whatsoever. Luckily cars in 1983 had few electronics.

    ECM - Engine Control Module (ECM)
    VAC - Volts Alternating Current
    VDC - Volts Direct Currnet
     
  3. Laforgester
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    Laforgester New Member

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    Apr 29, 2012
    Thank you for all of the advice... I'm gonna have a friend look over the electrical on the car hopefully this weekend. If that doesn't work look likes I'm going to have to take it into the dealer and have them check out the ECM, (Pretty Penny to be spent) Something has to be done as it looks like a squirrel has decided to move into my engine compartment and has decided that it's a great place to snack on nuts. I'll update when I find out what the issue is :)
     
  4. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    Are you saying squirrel for real? :hang: They tend to make anything that can be chewed on (aka anything non-metal) to make a nest with in the engine compartment as they find it a safe and cozy place to hang out. They will cause massive amounts of damage to what lies beneath the hood. Rats and Field Mice push their way into the interior cabin. Those open fresh air vents to keep mold from building up on your A/C evaporator core is an open door invite to these critters. Has your car been parked for a while? This usually does not happen on a frequently driven car.

    Back to the problem with the A/C compressor clutch not engaging to cool things off. After taking my own alternator out just the other day, it dawned on me that A/C clutch has a one-wire connector that snaps to a bracket on the alternator as it pass over to join in the passenger side engine harness. It is possible that the connector, which is below this bracket on the alternator, may have not been correctly and fully reconnected or the wire was broken during the alternator remove/install. Check that neither connector end is damaged on the inside (one male pin to one female receptacle), re-check for proper connection, and look for a broken wire. 12VDC to the side of the connector coming from the clutch will cause the clutch to engage.

    NOTE: Don't do this while the engine is running to prevent injury.

    Can you snap a few images around your engine bay depicting the damage? One thing important to ask here. Are you the original owner? If bought used, the previous owner may have had an alarm or remote start system that they removed before sale/repo to either use in another vehicle or to sell separately. Dealerships care not for any upgrades on vehicles as it rarely changes the Blue Book Value.

    I have been hit by rats in my old hotrod in my Mom's barn and she had to sell a car for junk recently due to out nutty friends. I have one story that is more funny than angst. A fellow Shipmate in my Squadron had went to Oklahoma to retrieve an early 70's Chevy car (Cutlass or Chevelle?). He had just pulled into Base Housing and had called me and a couple of others to help him pull it off the trailer. As we are standing around grunting about muscle cars and wishing we had some beer, he told us how mad he was that a rat had gotten into engine bay, chewed wires, then made a nest in the front seat upholstery. Just then he popped the hood and lifted it up to find the said actual rat atop the motor behind the air cleaner starring back at us with those frightful beady eyes. Just then I quipped, "Wow, I guess you got yourself a real Rat Motor!". You have to a Muscle Car aficionado to appreciate that one.
     
  5. Laforgester
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    Laforgester New Member

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    Apr 29, 2012
    My cars been parked for Waaaaay to long. I haven't actually been able to drive "Windy" for almost 8 months now :( I know that's so bad for the car too. Other than it being towed from one place to another that's just it. It irks me every time I look at the car knowing how much I'm paying in Car payments and insurance for it not to run. So I'm on a mission to get it fixed.
    I can 100% say I've checked out every fuse (Other than the big 120, That I can't get out with out fear of breaking it, any idea on how to get it out? Do they make a special tool?) and they are all good. My father was talking to one of his friends at work and he found an article a guy had posted in a forum... having all my same issues, took it to the dealership and found out that it was a Fuse, ended up costing him about $4OO eek! That's what I'm trying to avoid.
    I'm the second owner of the car, the guy before me had an alarm system in it, "Clifford". The wire on it has been cut...But I think the system is still in the there some where, is that bad?
    Haha on the rat story, I'm sure it was just as surprised when you woke him from his car trip LOL
     
  6. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    Sorry for being tardy on this. It is, after all, Cinco de Mayonnaise. Not sure why we are celebrating 5 stolen packaged condoments, but hey, anything to throw back some Cervezas! In Texas this is a Republic holiday. It is the day that we celebrate the first delivery of Corona longnecks to the Texas Rangers. In New Orleans, it's just another made up holiday to escape how crappy life is here.

    Does your engine start now and is it drivable? What was the issue that you had that required replacement of the alternator and battery? Who made that decision. Who installed the battery and Alternator? Did it work for a while or just went belly up? All clues to the puzzle.

    As for that 120 ALT fuse. There is no need to pull it as it has a clear window to see the leads. It should look connected with a ball of metal in the center. It should have a silvery look (shiny or dull). If it has discolorations or open segments, it is blown and should be replaced. The fuse puller tool under the engine compartment fuse block, while not fit these larger, box style fuses. If you need to pull it, you will need to use a pair of slip-joint pliers to grab it gently and apply a steady force to pull straight up on it. You can rock it back and forth a bit with the pliers to loosen it's grip on the fuse contacts. If there is anything in the car getting power, this fuse is OK, as well as, the FL Main fusible link.

    PM me for top secret details on the resolution to your problem. No, wait! This is Club-tC! We don't work like most other forums. Nothing to hide. Nothing up our sleeves. OK, I joke to much but in the end, there is nothing like a little smile to brighten your day. Actually, I started this post 2 nights ago but just had way too many household distractions to concentrate. The meds for my cervical neck injury has my thoughts all mashed up. Don't worry though the length of time for the reply assures you accurate answers. :)

    Charging Circuit Schematic.jpg
    Click on the Charging Circuit Schematic for an exploded view. I know what your thinking and No, it will not explode your computer screen. :) You can see that the charging circuit is very simple. Most of the work is done by the voltage regulator and the bridge rectifier built into the Generator (Alternator for you Honda Guys).
    External connections (B) large cable and the other 4 are in the booted Molex connecter.
    (B) Charging output of the generator to the battery
    (S) Voltage sensing for determining battery loading and charging need
    (L) Provides ground to illuminate the charging problem indicator on the Combination Gauge
    (IG) Ignition source thru the ECU Ignition circuit
    (M) ECM control over the voltage regulator or a monitoring circuit. No sure. The (M) pin was not diagrammed in the schematic that displayed this.

    Did you check the ECU-IG fuse? You can find it under the dash above the Dead Pedal roughly where your left ankle would been when driving. The exploding .....No. Seriously. Nothing go boom. I promise :).. schematic shows the location (also depicted on the fuse panel itself. With a flashlight or trendy iPhone, you can make out the fuse location numbers next to the fuse itself that corresponds with the diagram.
    Cabin Fuse Panel.JPG

    Really to know exactly what the car WILL do. From there, we can revisit the maladies and diagnose a cure. <--
    And Ross thought he had the Nighttime Soap Opera visiting Doctor gig all sewed up! ah-ha. Have at you!
     
  7. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    If you haven't figured it out, I like to pun around making wild references to other media icons. Yes, I am the one and only Forum Comic. Ta-Da :banana_piano:
     
  8. Laforgester
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    Laforgester New Member

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    Apr 29, 2012
    Here are some photos of my car... She's Pretty dirty. You can see where the oil cap is the Squirrel/ Mouse/ Rat- whatever it is has taken the green pad from around my battery terminal and has made it's self a bed. Few nuts that have been eaten laying on the alternator. Clifford is the alarm system that I had told you about that was in there when I bought it. I took a pic of the 120 fuse seems to look okay to me, it's hard to see from the angle.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Laforgester
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    Laforgester New Member

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    Apr 29, 2012
    "The story you are about to hear is true. The names have been changed to protect the innocent." lol!

    Date: July something.. maybe June can't remember. I was driving down the interstate to work, with the cruise control on and the car started to jerk. (Freaked me out a bit since I'm doing about 75MPH) the car starts to slow down and it seems the cruise control has stopped working. I drive the rest of the way with my foot on the gas. I make it about another 20 mins down the interstate, get off on my exit and at the slower speeds the car starts jerking again like it wants to stall. I turn into work and go over the speed bump and then the car just dies in the parking lot.... I opened the hood and it smelled like an electrical something that's overly hot. Have it towed back home.
    The scion isn't my primary vehicle so I'm not down for the count. I try to jump start the car from a Friends and nothing happens. Call the tow company again and when the tow truck driver comes out he is able to get a reading from the battery and tells me that it's fine however the alternator is dead. So I have it towed to a local shop they check the car over and tell me it's defiantly the alternator. However he's gonna charge me too much. So I bring it home, take the alternator to Advance and have them double check it's certified dead. I get a replacement, install it and now the battery is dead. Replace the battery and it starts up, It's very rough as I had expected. Take her for a little test drive and she won't go more than about 5mph with my foot to the metal. I let it idle for about 20 mins as I had read on some forums and it would even it's self out and run smooth. In that 10-15 min time span my car over heats and I realize that my fans are not engaging, and that I don't have any A.C. In my frustration I ground the car and just let it sit. 2 weeks later test it out and the Horse power is back. So that's when I started testing the fuses, relays etc. Gave up again, and now here I am now. The end.... It's just wasting away now on the side of the house :(

    I've already found and checked all of the fuses where the ECU-IG is. All tested green.... Thank you for the schematics, I'm glad we have a Trust level where my I didn't have to fear my screen blowing up!

    Happy Late Cinco de Mayonnaise! Sorry to hear that you hurt your neck, how did it happen?
     
  10. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    If Technical Knowledge Be What You Are After, Seek Ye to The Next Post

    Me? Very well, where should I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low-grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen-year-old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. All I everr wanted was some sharks with freak'n lasers on their heads! That flopped so I joined the Navy to see the World. I was tasked with critiquing the exercise equipment at hotels around the Globe. My demise was the snap of a 1/4" steel wire cable that I believed was hack sawed by Al Qaeda operatives. I had the full weight on a shoulder/lat press nautilus type bench. On my rep where I had all of my strength into it, right at the apogee of the stroke when I decided to challenge the validity of Sir Isaac's Laws. In short, he was right. This epiphany came to quick realization when I came to my senses to discover myself lying prone on the hard tile floor with the steel grip bar laying across my face proudly upholding it's frayed cable in the shining lights of the ceiling.
    *****Did I say this was going to be quick? Insert Intermission here. Pick me some Raisinettes will ya? Oh yeah......back to frame.
    didily-di, didily-di, didily-di *****
    So I landed on my neck and shoulders with a good enough bump on the old, yet incredible handsome, noggin to cause a blackout. I received a cervical neck injury that has my entire left arm constantly in stinging numbness with significant sensory loss (feel, touch) painful to hold cold objects, and a extremely sharp, stabbing pain like a spear piercing through the shoulder blade to the fingers. My right side has the same symptoms but much subdued most of the time. I am a Reservist but I worked for the Navy like a contractor based on the job that I do. It takes me all over the World for different lengths of times with little notice. No, I am not some clandestine warrior in a Tom Clancy novel. I am more of a Fed-EX for the Navy. Loads of fun but I sure missed driving my tC and kiddos. So here I am all beat up with not much Love from the Navy. The accident happened October 26th, 2010 and reported to Navy Branch Medical the day after we arrived Stateside November 5th in the PM. The Navy Doc that did my initial focused only on the injury that I had received during the bi-annual physical fitness in which I had a partial tear of my right rotator cuff that hurt muey bad. So I was put in time out with the Navy, received hap hazard medical care for well over a year and now 17 months down the road I sit slowly deteriorating with no diagnosis. My Squadron has only taken an active interest in my woes only since December 2011 but it looks like both of my careers with the Navy are kaput. The meds that I am on cause weight gain, weakness, difficulty walking but have the further reactions of difficulty concentrating and a random memory loss (short/mid/long term). I have sharp pain in my neck, to tired to walk half the time while other times I do work around the house like nothing is wrong, save for, the constant numbness. Did I mention that I went from 26OCT2010 to 25MAR2011 without any prescribed medications? I went Home to Texas and pretty much sat on his couch in agonizing pain most of the day and night. None of the Doctors in New Orleans have a clue to what is going on and have been somewhat incompetent in managed care. Can we say "Hello Obama Care!" ....Someone give me a shout? ...what?... no one? Oh yeah, I forgot .... it SUCKS! I have had to seek out health care out of my pocket to get things done. What's that I hear from over there in the corner? Yes, you are correct. I was doing work for the Navy so it should be on their dime. Well, that just does not seem to fit me. I have no civilian job as I make a good enough living with the Navy. That job has been sideline due to the extensive time that has elapsed leaving me with only the traditional one-weekend a month. Basically I am unemployed with virtually no income nor prospect of a job, hovel around like an old man, and have barely touched my car for over a year and a half. Other than that, I am peachy.
     
  11. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    Ok, Now On to The Technical Tid-bits

    What you were experiencing my Dear is what we call in the Biz; Limp Mode. On rare occasion a few unlucky Owners have found themselves limping back home. What's that you say? Government conspiracy to control the Americans' thirst for fossil fuel; Black Gold, Texas Tea! Hard to burn through a tank of gas at 6 MPH. Who would want to take that trip to Grandma's that used to take 45 minutes that now takes a day and a half? The Government hording fuel? No way. Think of it as just a little test for Global control....ah hmmm.... You are supposed to know that. Forget all that you have just seen. Nothing to see here. Those are not the Droids that you're looking for.

    Actually, Limp Mode is to get you to the next gas station, garage, dealership, or home, instead of, leaving you stranded. Don't worry. To drive like this for short distances (10 miles or so) is not going to damage your motor. The ECM has lost communication with certain sensors or has detected in it's error loop feedback that a sensor is possibly bad. It will NOT void your powertrain warranty to drive to the nearest help. It is NOT intended for a person to keep driving this way until their next paycheck. Read more about it here, http://www.club-tc.com/forums/engine/2545-ecm-fail-safe-mode.html

    Starter Circuit.jpg Engine Room Relay Box.jpg 120A Alt Fuse.jpg
    As you can see in the diagram for the starter circuit, the starter solenoid gets it's power directly from the battery via the AM2 30A fuse, the Ignition Switch and finally thru the ST Relay both located in the Engine Room Relay Box. The ST Relay is energized by a safety circuit that receives power thru the 120A ALT fuse in the Engine Room R/B which follows on thru the AM1 25A fuse (Interior Fuse Panel) to the Ignition Switch, where upon key turning to Ignition, the ST Relay coil is energized if Clutch Start Switch (MT) or the Park/Neutral Position Switch (AT) is made. The picture is of the 120A ALT fuse in the Engine Room R/B depicting the view of the fusible material in it's unblown configuration. This area would be void of the shiny, pillow like metal that melts at a given temperature that corresponds to a given load (Amperage). What does this all come down to? The car cannot start without the 120A ALT fuse being intact. Most everything else runs off a direct battery bus. The starting mechanical/electrical logic here is to prevent you from starting your car with shorted out alternator that is either seized up from a heavy, internal arc that caused the 120A ALT fuse to pop. In a situation like this (No, not Farcebook), if you were able to engage the starter, it could damage the starter, cause an overload of the battery and short the wiring. The serpentine belt could either break or excessively wear very quickly leading to slipping of the water pump (engine overheat damage), power steering pump (harder to turn the wheel - accident), and air conditioner compressor (fogged window - accident/sweaty armpits - accident).
     
  12. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    I am cutting up my exorbitantly long post into 3 for easier reading and the fact that my session will bomb out for taking too long to post.:banghead:

    Your description of your initial problem on your drive home read like a text book non functioning alternator. It just went bad on you because the battery had enough power to start. As you are driving, the battery becomes more and more depleted to the point that the voltage drops below the functioning range of the car's electronics (cruise control). The battery further depletes where there is not enough energy to fire the ignition coils making the car run very poorly till it just dies. The jerking (I am assuming is longitudinal) is probably from the motor cutting out and then firing again.

    So why did the battery check OK? Well, car batteries, mostly of the standard lead acid wet cell types, will tend to raise their voltage levels back up a few volts if they have not been completely discharged. Their amperage capability, however, will be drastically down and most likely never charge back up to it's previous capacity. The issue becomes incrementally worse the more times the battery is discharged this way and/or the longer time before the battery is charged back up to it's fullest capacity. So back to the battery. In your instance, the battery may have had a chance to self ramp the voltage back up to around 11.5-12.6 VDC (randomized average of what people consider a charged battery when, in effect, is a discharged battery. 12.8VDC is considered the charged battery level.

    What did the Wrecker Driver and the mechanic use to test the battery as good? Testing with a multimeter will come up with the above voltage and the "It's good just needs to be charged up" quip. It is a measure of the state of charge (voltage potential) but it is the battery's load capacity (CCA - Cold-Cranking Amps) that can only be test with a bulky load tester. There are computerized battery/load testers used now that look like an overly large digital multimeter. Testing with these will tell the actual capacity and performance of the battery. Over time, if the battery was not charged up, it will eventually fail. One of those two scenarios can explain your dead battery.

    Had you seen the MIL illuminated in your Combination Gauge? In Honda speak; the check engine light on the speedometer is on. If it was or not, did anyone put a scan tool on your OBDII port to read any codes active or pending? You are correct. The rough idle that you were experiencing could most have likely a result of the battery disconnect as listed here:
    http://www.club-tc.com/forums/engine/2575-rough-idle-after-batt-disconnect-ecm-full-reset.html

    Radiator - Condenser Fan Schematic.jpg
    View attachment 3387
    Your overheating issue from the fans not turning on could be a relay issue - either bad, contaminated connectors, or improperly seated. Fan Relay 1 and 3 are completely interchangeable but will not take the place of Fan Relay 2 which has one more connector, 5 blade as oppose to 4. All 3 relays have their coils energized directly from the Ignition Switch and the ECU-IG 7.5A fuse. The grounds of the coils are switched Relays 1 and 3 derive their switched load power from fuses RDI 30A and CDS 30A, respectively, on the battery bus. Relay 2, however, acts more that of a mechanical logic function. Radiator Fan function for engine cooling is caused by voltage resistance across the ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) sensor to the ECM. The ECM will activate a ground to energize Fan Relay 1 to make (switch on the load side) activating the Radiator Fan Motor. At the same time Fan Relay 2 is energized making a contact switch which between terminal blade 4 to terminal blade 5 which direct to ground. The load on Fan Relay 2 is actually the A/C Compressor Fan Motor. I know, crazy but this fan is on 2 relays. This prevents the A/C Fan from running.

    That is one scenario. The other is operating of the A/C Controls. When the A/C Compressor is turned on by inputs from the A/C Control Assembly (area below the radio with the big knob), the A/C Condenser and the Radiator Fans are both turned on. This is accomplished by some mumbo-jumbo magical stuff. So that is the operation of the fans in a nutshell. Anytime the A/C is turned on, both fans should be running. That is why it is good to turn the A/C on, fan low, and temp at middle or hot to give your motor extra cooling whether at a traffic light, in the lanes, or in your drive-way. The radiator fan turns on at 204F. To cool back done to the normal operating temp, use the method prescribed above.
     
  13. navylife59
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    navylife59 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Mar 22, 2006
    Location:
    Emory, Texas or Gretna, LA
    Problems get solved?
     

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